The article presents an interview of Donald Kirkpatrick and Jack Phillips, renowned for their work and contributions in the evaluation arena, sparred at the American Society for Training and Development Return On Investment (ASTD ROI) Network Conference in Amsterdam, organized by the ASTD ROI Network in cooperation with ProfitWise, as of January 01, 2004. People all over the world have used the Kirkpatrick four-level framework. In 1959, evaluation was a general thing, an all-encompassing thing. People talked about evaluation in an elusive way. The four-level framework set the standard almost 40 years ago and inspired many people.